We've grown every single year since we started using radio. Some years a little less than others, but on average we're growing $600,000 to a million dollars a year — and we can trace that back to putting ourselves out there on the radio.

Jeff Leavens

HVAC Operations Manager, E & V Energy

Industry

HVAC

Location

Wolcott & Central NY

Size

8 offices, ~40 employees

Products

Radio, Digital

E & V Energy has been heating Central and Northern New York homes since 1913. The business started on the fuel side — oil, propane, kerosene — and built its name on more than a century of word of mouth. “You can’t be in business for over 113 years and not have people come back,” says Jeff Leavens, who runs HVAC operations and advertising for the company. Word of mouth, he says, is what they hang their hat on.

But the HVAC side of the business is younger — about 60 years — and it carries a different problem. A homeowner who buys a new furnace or heat pump isn’t coming back for ten, fifteen, twenty years. To keep the schedule full, E & V needs a steady stream of new customers who don’t already know that the company they trust for fuel also does heating and air conditioning. “That’s been our biggest trouble,” he says. “Letting people know — hey, we also do this.”

So E & V tried everything. Door hangers. Flyers tucked into fuel invoices. Postcards by the thousands — “I’ve had boxes just packed with returns.” Billboards, until he realized people were flying past at 60 miles an hour with no way to act on what they saw. Search and SEM, which work but cap out: “They’re pushing for you to get those leads, and that’s all they can do. There’s a finite amount.” Every channel got tracked the same way — every new caller is asked how they heard about the company, and the answers get logged into a CRM and pulled into weekly, monthly, and semi-annual reports.

That’s how we track every single job that comes in. I can run a report and see what’s worked for us this year and where most of our leads came from.

Radio is the channel that gave him room to grow. Where search leads are capped, radio lets him “increase, decrease, change, however I want, on the fly.” When he wants installations, he runs the rebates and tax-credit messaging — “I did that the last three months, and my sales leads increased.” When the service side slows down, he switches to cleaning reminders. One medium, dialed to whatever the business needs that month.

His philosophy on radio is built on consistency, not bursts.

You have to be there. You have to be heard. Today they may not need you. Tomorrow they might. And if I’m not there, they’re going to go with the person who is.

That commitment shows up in the numbers. “We’ve grown every single year since we started using radio,” he says. “Some years a little less than others, but on average we’re growing $600,000 to a million dollars a year — and we can trace that back to putting ourselves out there on the radio.” It worked well enough that E & V now runs radio on the fuel side too — where it’s the only advertising they do — and sees the same direct correlation: people calling in to switch companies.

A lot of that comes down to the relationship. His rep, Frank, calls every year — for the sports packages, for new ideas, to check in.

It’s a partnership. If I need to switch gears really quick, the turnaround is fantastic.

His advice, hard-won across every channel he’s tested: “The worst thing you can do is stick with something that doesn’t work — but you have to try it to know. I tried billboards, I tried SEM and SEO, because I needed to know my ROI. That’s how I got to radio. I tried it because I wanted to see what happened — and the funny thing is, my phone started ringing. To me that was just: okay, let’s keep doing that.”

Scott Swanson: Thanks for sitting down with us. I'm curious about the business. I know you're on the HVAC side — do you also deal with the fuel delivery side?

Jeff Leavens: My side is all HVAC. We help out a lot with gas line work — pressure tests, hooking up the manometer, things like that — but mostly it's 100% HVAC on my side. We do everything from new construction, commercial, ductwork, mobile homes, new installs, service and repair, cleanings — the whole gamut, start to finish.

Scott Swanson: You've got a long history — a hundred-and-something-year history — and a real personal touch. I've read more about the oil side than the HVAC side, but I know that's something you really hang your hat on.

Jeff Leavens: That's where it started — the fuel side. The HVAC side isn't as old; we're probably about 60 years there. The problem is, not many people have heard about it. Our biggest trouble is getting the word out that, hey, we also do heating and air conditioning on top of the fuel and propane.

Scott Swanson: Walk me through the mechanics of getting business. How much is repeat versus new, and where does the new business come from?

Jeff Leavens: With anything, it's about getting leads in. We have a lot of repeat business — you can't be in business for over 113 years and not have people come back. Word of mouth is phenomenal; it's what we pride ourselves on. But once people get a new installation, especially on the HVAC side, they're not coming back for 10, 15, 20 years. So you need that new business. We put flyers in with our fuel invoices, we put door hangers up, we do radio — we've tried everything over the years, postcards, you name it. The whole point is to find what works and stick with it. And the only way to find out is to track it — find out your return on investment, then go from there.

Scott Swanson: You mentioned measurement. How do you do that?

Jeff Leavens: Whether you're calling for an installation, an estimate, or service, one of the first questions we ask is: how did you hear about us? The internet? The radio? Word of mouth? A neighbor or family member? That's how we track every single job that comes in. Then I can run a report — weekly, monthly, semi-annual — and see what's worked for us this year and where most of our leads came from. We capture all of that in our CRM.

Scott Swanson: How does radio play a part in all of that, and where does it work well for you?

Jeff Leavens: My thoughts on radio — and they didn't always used to be this way, just from being young and not knowing — if you're going to use radio short-term, radio is not for you. You need to be there for when people do need you. People are fickle; they hear you all the time, they know you're there. But when they need you and you're not there anymore, they forget about you and move on to the next person they hear. My experience is: if you put yourself out there, consistently, year after year — today they may not need you, tomorrow they might. And if I'm not there, they're going to go with the person who is. You have to be there. You have to be heard.

Scott Swanson: You've tried other mediums too.

Jeff Leavens: I've tried billboards — thinking, oh, people can see my name. But they're flying by at 60 miles an hour. How do they get your number? What's the point they take from it? They saw a name. And with a name like ours, what does "energy" even mean — solar? Fuel oil? HVAC? We needed something more direct, that people would hear on a regular basis. I've done postcards — thousands of them, returned to sender, boxes just packed. You pay for a list that's supposedly good, and it's not as direct, not as zeroed-in on my target audience. Radio gives me the medium to do that.

Scott Swanson: So how does it work for installs versus service?

Jeff Leavens: It's worked phenomenally for both. Depending on my offering — if I want to increase my sales leads, I call up the station and switch to the rebates, the promotions, the tax credit. I did that the last three months, and my sales leads increased. If my service side is slow, I switch to "have you had your cleaning yet?" Radio gives me the ability to increase, decrease, change however I want, on the fly. A postcard has a slow trickle, and most people chuck it in the trash. Radio's not like that — they hear the direct message, and tomorrow when you turn the station on, I'm there again: have you had your cleaning, has your unit broken, have you thought about replacement, have you heard about heat pumps? I can get all of that across in 30 or 60 seconds.

Scott Swanson: I love that you advertise with a stated goal in mind, rather than trying to say everything you do in one ad. That probably speaks to a lot of the success you've had.

Jeff Leavens: We've grown every single year since we started using radio. Some years a little less than others, but on average we're growing $600,000 to a million dollars a year — and we can trace that back to putting ourselves out there on the radio. And now we're even using it on the fuel side, where radio is the only advertising they do. You can see the direct correlation — people calling in and saying, I'd like to switch my company to yours. I like the idea of no fees, I like that you have a contract and come out every year to clean it, and I don't have to worry about it.

Scott Swanson: That's a sophisticated approach to marketing — it's not just gut feel, you're using the numbers.

Jeff Leavens: It has to make sense. What I've learned over the years is that if it doesn't make sense, the worst thing you can do is stick with it. A lot of people use that shotgun approach, with everything all over the place. Why do that when you have things that work? You utilize the things that have been working for you — that's how you continue to grow.

Scott Swanson: What's kept the relationship strong on our end?

Jeff Leavens: Any time there's an opportunity — Frank always calls me every year for the sports part of it. Being the guy who gets that phone call — "hey, we're doing this, I thought of you first" — because of the relationship we've created over the years, that puts me there. Without Frank taking care of us, it's a partnership. We're doing business with each other, but we've built something where if I need to switch gears really quick, the turnaround is fantastic. Or he'll call me — "what are your thoughts about jumping on board with this? Would you want to try it?" I love that, because at least it gives me the opportunity to say yes or no. Without that relationship, I don't feel I'd get that. And if it didn't work, I wouldn't do it. That's why we continue to do it.

Scott Swanson: Not everybody wants that kind of relationship — to keep trying new things.

Jeff Leavens: I think the worst thing people can do is not try things, especially with your business. If you're not willing to take a chance and see if something works, you'll never know if it does. And it's okay to try something that doesn't work — but if you don't try it, you don't know. There was a reason I tried billboards, and SEM, and SEO — because I needed to know my ROI. It could have been phenomenal, but if I didn't try it, I wouldn't have known. That's how I got to radio: do you want to try it? I do, because I want to see what happens. And the funny thing is what happened — my phone started ringing. To me, that was just: okay, let's keep doing that.

Scott Swanson: Search has its place, but it caps out, right?

Jeff Leavens: I have a budget — this much money to use each year. Where do I want to put it? There are companies out there with more money than I have, and their pay-per-click puts them at the top no matter what keywords I use. So I needed something different, something that would work for us. Radio is what I found. I still have my SEO and SEM — they do great, they bring in leads. But I don't have a way with them to increase the amount of leads I bring in. They're pushing for you to get those leads, and that's all they can do — there's a finite amount. Radio gives me the ability to increase, decrease, change, however I want as I go. And it's paid dividends, hands down, for us.

Scott Swanson: I really appreciate your time.

Jeff Leavens: I appreciate you coming in and sitting with us too — it benefits us all the way around. I love that partnership. If you ever need anything, please reach out, and we'll help any way we can.